The Legal Playbook for Home Care Hiring & Termination

The Legal Playbook for Home Care Hiring & Termination

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Hello listeners,  welcome to CareSmartz360 On Air, a Home Care Podcast. I’m Carolina Gonzaga, Sales Executive at Caresmartz. Today I’m interviewing Sami Asaad, a partner at Pearson Ferdinand LLP and chair of their health and home care practice. He counsels home care and staffing businesses nationwide on employment risk compliance and tough personal issues. Recognized for his employment law and management expertise, Sami helps leaders pull legal clarity from very complex HR challenges. In this

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episode, he’s going to walk us through all of it. Truly a legal playbook for those of us who may not even speak legal. What I love about this episode is that Sami really simplifies his best practices and advice in a way that we can all understand and benefit from. So, please join me in welcoming Sami Asaad. >> Thank you so much for having me. >> Yeah, this is kind of a great time because I’m going to be seeing you next week at the conference in Dallas. And um so this is just the pre this is just the

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start everybody to many more conversations I’m sure that we’ll have. And so, Mr. Sami, before we kind of dive into the questions that I prepared for you, I’ve done a lot of podcasts with Caresmartz. This is the first one on this topic. So, you’re a partner at Pearson Ferdinand LLP and the chair of their home care health and home care practice. So, I’d love to find out about how Sami ends up in this role kind of in this growing industry of home care. What’s the journey of you to

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today? >> Oh, boy. Well, how far back do you want to go? Right. We start from the very beginning from that stormy night. >> Yes. Well, um so uh my background in law really focused on labor and employment issues. Um and I really enjoy labor and employment law. It’s really interesting. The law is always changing. It’s very political. So, you know, if uh we have a Republican administration, the law is going to change. If we have a Democrat administration, law is going to change.

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There’s also 50 states with their own, you know, spin on things. Some states have more labor and employment laws than others. So, just a very exciting area. Plus, it’s also a very human area. So, uh there’s always a story. There’s always a worker. There’s always a supervisor. Um so, it’s just an interesting area all around and, uh makes for a lot of great stories. Um so uh was with a pretty large firm for many years and while at the very large firm um I was asked one time to give a talk

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to a group of uh home care agency owners on some changes in the labor and employment law. So as an eager young associate of course I said yes and um I went and I gave the talk and uh it wasn’t my first time speaking but it was the first time I got a really uh vibrant reaction from the audience like we want to hear more this is important and I didn’t realize how game changing these rules uh this rule change was this has to do back in 2013 2014 when this when the live-in rules were being changed at

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the at the federal level at the federal real deal. Well, and so I was invited back multiple times. Um I ended up getting my number one client through that speaking engagement. >> Wow. >> And um uh if they’re listening, they know who they are. And uh so yeah, I started representing home care agencies and it’s been great. I’ve been serving the industry ever since. Um sort of my reputation grew in that industry. I then moved on from that firm to uh my last firm where I joined them as chair of

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the home uh home healthcare practice group. Um there were national labor and employment firms. So it really allowed me to sort of present myself out there on a national level before I was with a large firm that was uh focused in the northeast. And of course when I joined that firm the last firm it was right before COVID. So all my plans about, you know, taking the home care industry by storm and going to different associations and different things kind of got put on hold, but it still was a wonderful

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opportunity and I did get to meet a lot more clients. Of course, home care went through the ringer during COVID and um in many ways, home care was really on the front lines helping people stay in their homes, especially the most vulnerable people, seniors, uh to stay home and not go into facilities and things like that. So, um of course, Homecare had a lot of questions that needed answers and there weren’t a lot of answers to give. So it was a lot of strategizing, a lot of um sort of outside the box thinking, you know, uh

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looking at analogous scenarios like I looked back to H1N1 um for a frame of reference, for example, if you remember that. >> Yeah. >> So it was really interesting and then um so Pearson Ferdinand is actually the largest law firm startup in US history. It launched in 2024 with 130 partners. Um we’re now over 250 partners which is very exciting but um it’s very organic growth. Um we’re a very unique law firm. We’re not the traditional large international law firm. We are a large

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international law firm but we are partner only and um we’re extremely flexible, extremely nimble, extremely lean in how we handle matters. So um you get partners who basically you know grew up in in the legal industry in large law firms, large traditional law firms and then decided they wanted a lot more autonomy, a lot more flexibility and that’s what we have at Pierford as we like to call it. And so um I’ve been there since April of 24 and it’s been absolutely game changing for me. Uh

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wonderful for my clients. um uh my rates are lower than they would be if I had, you know, stayed at the at the traditional firm. Um and so we do everything for our clients. Uh I still focus mainly on labor and employment, but when it comes to home care, of course, you know, having served that segment for as long as I have, um I work on their services agreements. I help them with regulatory issues. Um but I have a wonderful team in our home health and home care practice group. So, we do M&A deals, we help with um government

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audits, we help with commercial transactions, commercial litigation, uh trademarks, uh intellectual property, non-compete issues. So, we deal with basically everything that a homecare agency uh could run into. >> Yeah. And so, it’s funny that you described the way that what did you call it? Careerford. Is that what the short term Pierford? >> It’s interesting the way you describe it. Um, a lot of the ways you describe the agency being different >> also relates so much to the home care

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agency. It’s got to be nimble. It’s so diverse. Um, and so and so it’s it seems suited actually as like a leader in in the home care space. So when you are what would you say is kind of the biggest reason why an agency would reach out to you? Is it usually because an audit is coming? Is it usually because they’ve run into an issue in the competitive space? Or is it so vast? Or is there something that sticks out the most for you today? >> It is vast. I mean, let’s but I mean,

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let’s face it, right? People tend to be more reactive than proactive. So, a lot of times if it’s a new client, it’s because they’ve run into a problem and they’re not sure who to turn to and somebody’s, you know, introduced them to me. Um, okay. But a lot of my existing clients, I’m very proud of them because they a lot of them are extremely proactive and so they’re calling me, you know, when they’re growing or when they’re, you know, expanding or taking on another agency or it’s time for them

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to sell or find a strategic buyer for their agency so they can, you know, grow or exit. So, it really is everything. Of course, um my favorite type of thing to do with an agency is kind of help them problem solve, avoid issues, avoid litigation or resolve a dispute before it turns into litigation versus, you know, litigation itself. I’ve done a lot of litigation. Um, at this point though, I will hand that off to my litigator partners who are all rock stars when it comes to handling uh

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litigation so that I can stay focused on my sweet spot which is helping business people from a more collaborative standpoint, problem solving standpoint, >> right? So, kind of working with them as well their partner and as they grow with their goals and being proactive. Okay. And so can knowing that you come from an extensive background in labor law, can I ask you is our industry a beast compared to others because of the remote aspect? Because of the aspect of being in people’s homes, because of the aspect of

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agency owners not being with their employees, you know, being able to see what’s happening at all times. Does it make the industry more complicated, would you say, or is it just like any other? Yeah, you know, it’s um I wouldn’t use the word beast, >> but I get what you’re saying. >> No, it’s it it’s certainly no worse than any other industry. It really is just different. I mean, the everything you mentioned certainly adds complexity, right? You’re not seeing your employees.

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Um but at the same time, you know, um caregivers tend to be very loving people, very caring people. um you know assuming you’re you’ve really refined your hiring practices right to get those ones who are genuinely caregivers that hard. I mean I’m pleased to say you know my mom was a certified home health aid before she retired in New Jersey. Um the most caring person you could you can find and uh my clients routinely rave about how wonderful their caregivers are. um when

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I see you next week at the uh HCAOA National Conference, one of the uh wonderful feature uh section segments of it is the caregiver of the year award. And it’s I always like to see the um nominees and hear their stories. And you always got to bring a pack of tissues because you will be in tears when you hear this caregiver come up and give usually her but sometimes his you know story about how they got in and what they do and uh there’s so much humility. So um it is a mix of course um

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they’re not all wonderful you know not all humans are wonderful people and so some do take advantage. Um so yeah there are some unique features on the wage and hour side. There’s a lot of unique features certainly around, you know, uh, the time sheets and, uh, EVV and if you have live-ins, that’s a particularly complex area that I’ve helped a lot of agencies deal with, >> both from a proactive side and also a DO investigation side, litigation side. So, it just has its own unique uh,

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complexities. >> Yeah. Okay, good answer. And it’s not a beast, everyone. That came out of my mouth. Um, but actually it leads me to my first plan question, which are, you know, given all the experience and all the agencies you’ve worked with, if you’ve got an agency walking in today to say, “Look, I’m coming with you proactively. I’m small. I’m starting to hire and scale.” What are the things you would suggest that they keep in mind? What they want to avoid um with hiring?

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What are some missteps that might lead to future issues? >> Yeah. So um and I guess by the time this is published I will have uh given my breakout presentation at the HDA conference which is relevant. It’s called hiring and firing without fear legal insights and best practices. Um for those who perhaps didn’t get to attend I’m going to go ahead and give you my very first principle. I’m going to cover seven principles >> at the at my talk. One of them the first one is

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>> don’t neglect your intuition. Um, >> this is really such a human focused field. You know, you’re not making products, you’re dealing with people, your chief assets are, you know, people. And so, you really have to rely on that intuition, you know, that you’ve gained through just being a human and living life. And, um, if it doesn’t feel like it’s the right fit, you probably should go with your gut. Um because it’s amazing how many times I work with uh an

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agency or somebody in a different field and we’re dealing with some sort of dispute or litigation and I’m talking to the manager, the business owner and they’re like, “Ah, you know, I had a feeling about this person. I didn’t feel good about hiring them, but I was went ahead and hired them anyway.” And it’s like, “You should not have ignored your intuition.” Um, so that’s really a big one. But yeah, I mean, when it comes to hiring, you have to have a good

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system. You have to have a good process uh from your application. Actually, even before your application, right? Your job post. Nowadays, we have a lot of uh states that have passed laws that require you to put a lot more disclosures even in your job post, things like rates of pay. Um, and of course you’ve got the box states which means you know you have to be mindful of whether or not you’re going to ask about criminal history and of course home care is the kind of industry where that is a relevant factor but you

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still have to make sure that you comply with your applicable state and local laws. >> So and then you have to have a good >> process. A lot of times people the let’s say the business owner has a good intuition and has a good uh has a good set of experience set of skills and experience when it comes to hiring but they’ve never reduced those to some sort of a checklist. And you know, >> every hire that the business owner makes is a good one, but the business owner goes on vacation, leaves hiring to an

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office manager, and that person is using his or her skills and intuition and experience, which may not be the as extensive as the owners. And so since there’s no checklist, since there are no guidelines, that person ends up making a hire that the business leader would not have made. So >> right, >> you want to pass on that knowledge, insight, experience, intuition, reduce it to some sort of a checklist so that you can leverage the members of your team so that they can make hires the way

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you would have made those hires. >> So what I heard there really is scalability. You want to be able to deduce the best practice into something that you can hand off to somebody in your absence and then also you can keep everything moving and growing. Um, and I mean I guess one of the values of partnering with an with you know a company like yours is that you have the experience and you’ve seen what has happened to create and maybe help them create those best practices. >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, I’ve it’s

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a I need to write a book because the amount of crazy things that I’ve seen in in home care >> um you wouldn’t believe it. >> Yeah. Yes. Well, I used to be a caregiver, so I might. But I bet I have seen the But your end of it, you’re seeing this stuff. So I a spoiler alert, a book is coming. Pressure’s on. Um, my next question is about background and credential check. So of course, >> sure, >> I’m pretty sure any level of hiring at an agency level, there is some base need

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for this. Um, what would you say is a be best practice when approaching that? And I know that’s a loaded question because you guys do work all over um the United States, correct? >> Yes. Yeah. And it is it is a state specific issue there. This is not like a federal issue, but um and home care is really interesting in that every state deals with home care differently. There’s some states that don’t regulate it at all, some states that regulate it very heavily, and some states that, you

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know, are somewhere in between. And um oftentimes there is going to be some sort of state mandated uh background check, right? So obviously you have to make sure you comply with that. Um and if you happen to be in a state that does not mandate some sort of a background check, it’s still a best practice to have some kind of a background check because there’s a common law uh claim you can have. It’s just called negligent hiring, which means um as an employer, you know, you should have known that the person you

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hired was some sort of predator. And had you bothered to, you know, spend 25 bucks or whatever it is to check, you would have figured out that they have, you know, seven uh serious convictions involving um abuse of elderly or assault or sexual abuse or things along those lines. So, it is a best practice to do some kind of a check. Um, and of course, if you’re participating in Medicaid or some government program, they’re also going to require you to do what’s called an IG check where you um run their name

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against this government database to make sure that they’re not excluded by the government from participating in that program. I did once have a client who um so that if I may sort of like pivot a little bit off of your question, you know, because a lot of agency owners listening to this, they’re either doing this already or maybe I just gave them a small little bit of a tip, but um really issues come up regarding how you do this rather than what you should do, right? And I had a

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particular client one time who they were using pen and paper to track their IG checks because the OIG it’s a it’s a government website. All you have to do is go on there. So it sounds so simple and it’s free and why pay somebody when you could just go on a free website. Well here’s why. Because they were doing it pen and paper and somebody’s job was to write the name of the caregiver and then you know yes I checked them on you know this date. Well somebody fell through the cracks. And of course, the

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one person who fell through the cracks was a person who had you checked, you would have >> gotten. >> Uh yeah. So the it sounds so simple, but this actually resulted in a DOJ investigation because it you’re basically taking government money that you’re not allowed to take in this instance. So we had to deal with the federal department of justice. I had to deal with an assistant US attorney and they brought in the state’s attorney general’s office. So I had to deal with

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the assistant attorney general as well and try to negotiate and explain to them why this was a mistake, not some sort of a, you know, way to treat the government. And it was a process. You know, we got a good um but, you know, it was certainly a painful process for the client and it was totally avoidable. Turns out there’s a there’s a vendor that for about 300 bucks a year >> will do all of this for you on a monthly basis. So, >> um, so 300 bucks would have saved this client,

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>> uh, thousands of dollars in legal fees and thousands of more dollars in government penalties >> for sure. I mean, that’s the thing, guys. There are a lot of vendors for a reason, and some of this stuff is totally worth investing in. And just a plug for Caresmarts, our system, is that, you know, being able to document and having a checklist of what you need for your caregivers is so important. And what a great way to know that it’s in the cloud and not getting lost in some,

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you know, between some two sheets of paper. And you know what? I bet you that they’ll find that piece of paper in three years, but they don’t need it anymore. That is a great story. It made me think of something. >> You know, your agency or your um your firm is a large one. >> Would you say that your clients that you’re able to help are a certain size or does it range in terms of how large an agency is? >> Yeah, it does range. And um obviously the bigger the agency the you know the

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more challenges that they’re going to have but because of our firm’s flexible model. Um you know I work with agencies uh that are you know 25 caregivers uh plus you know a lot of them are mom and pop you know uh a lot of agency owners this is their second career you know they’ve had some sort of executive life at some uh big company and now you know they’ve left that and they want to do something that they find more meaningful. I find a lot of agency owners uh have had to either care for a

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loved one or find care for a loved one and they end up going, you know, I can do this better than this mess that I just went through taking care of my mom or my dad. So, um yeah, we have the flexibility to work with agencies of all sizes. >> Okay, that’s good to know. And in terms of the work that you all do because we’ve gone through a few scenarios now with managing you know the employment aspect of it, managing you know the client aspect of it and then also kind of the government agencies and so would

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you say that you guys are kind of equipped to you know get involved in all of those different parties? >> Yeah, absolutely. I mean, obviously I focus more on labor and employment and home care specific issues, but my M&A team is amazing. Um, I’ve got a client right now that’s a homecare agency that’s selling after, you know, a long successful run. Uh, they want to move on. Um, I’ve got partners who are former um, assistant US attorneys, so they’ve been with the Department of Justice and

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so they’re well equipped to handle any sort of investigation. I’ve got a client right now that’s facing a pretty significant um DOJ investigation involving PPP loans um things like that. And we’re talking about, you know, high stakes stuff, multi-million dollar exposure uh matters and or multi multi-million dollar uh M&A deals. We’re equipped to handle all of these things. >> Okay. So when it comes to going back to the employment side of it, which is the part that fascinates me again just

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because I was a caregiver and knowing um you know the additional risk that can be added with the nature of our industry. Some people you know you hope that things go for the best you hire as best that you can and then inevitably in a business in a life of a business there will be you know need for terminations. So knowing that, you know, an agency might be moving along and everything’s fine and good, how can they prepare to secure, you know, their reasoning um behind letting you know an employee

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go? What are something some of the things that they can keep record of or document um in terms of that aspect? >> Yeah, that’s a that’s a good question. Um and this tends to come up more for I would say at least the conversations I end up having typically involve office staff more than they involve caregivers. They do involve caregivers too. Um, but caregivers, uh, oftentimes they see the writing on the wall, they move on. Their mobility is so, you know, uh, tremendous. They’re able to just jump

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agency to agency that if they don’t think it’s working out for them at agency 1, they’re just going to go to agency 2. And they might already be working for agency 2 while working for agency one. Um, so I’m not usually talking terminations about caregivers. Usually it is office staff and um these are individuals who are usually you know fairly well paid and so there’s a lot of risk there. Their mobility is not as you know fluid um and immediate as it is with caregivers. So that there tends

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to be a little bit more risk. So yeah as far as documentation goes it really is a it it’s a best practice right to have some sort of rationale for what you’re doing. You don’t want to have to count on, well, if they accuse me of discrimination or retaliation or some sort of wrongful termination, I’ll be able to explain it then. Well, then might mean, you know, in a year or two, and maybe the people that were involved, maybe the HR manager is not with your company anymore. Maybe their direct

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supervisor is not with your agency anymore. So, you want to sort of answer that question upfront. Um, and you don’t have to give the employee, you know, a full, you know, explanation as to why their employment is being terminated, but you do want to have some sort of internal record. >> Um, that’s funny. Actually, my I just put out my uh quarterly newsletter. Uh, it’s my first one ever. And in it, I provide a two-part template for companies for how to coach an employee so that you have that sort of paperwork.

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And um, the reason for the template is because this is something employers hate to do. They hate they like working with people, but they hate to have to criticize people or tell them what they did wrong or try to get them to correct their ways. Um, it’s an awkward process at best for a lot of people. So, I tried to sort of take the difficulty out of it and make it sort of a simpler uh more comfortable process. But, you want to have some sort of an email where you say, “Hey, listen.

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Here’s the here’s the company policy. Here’s how what you did didn’t, you know, maintain company policy. here’s the impact that this has on the business when we don’t do it. So, can I count on you to please do it going forward? And you want to get that employee to go yes, of course. You know, um it’d be funny if they said no. Right? That would sort of cut that relationship pretty short. But most people, you know, if they’re called out on something they

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did wrong, they’re going to say, “Yeah, yeah, I didn’t mean to.” >> And that way, you know, it’s very casual. It’s very comfortable, but then it you have something that memorializes that we did have a conversation about something that’s important that affects our clients, that affects co-workers, that affects the business. Um, and then if you do have to terminate, you know, then then you want at least some sort of internal record where let’s say if it is

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a what I call a mom and pop, you know, where you have two business partners. Partner A writes to partner B, hey, we’re going to let this employee go, you know, um, I told them before, we really can’t have this type of misstep. They told me they weren’t going to do it, but it happened, you know, one or two or three more times. We just don’t think we can move forward. You know, that way you have that in your in the file to be able to articulate your rationale that it was a legitimate

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business reason and not due to some protected characteristic or some protected complaint or some leave of absence that the person took that’s protected. >> Yeah. You know, it makes me think of um what you mentioned earlier about empowering other staff to be able to know like those steps in hiring those steps. And so it’s kind of >> the same thing. It’s being able to, you know, document this stuff and have kind of a way that you do it so that you always have that to go back to. Um, what

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was I? Oh god, I had this thought. So, with the um it being awkward, it’s hard to have these conversations. I mean, I guess this is why a lot of agencies in any business should really be having conversations about coaching and status of your employment and how you’re doing regardless because it’s easier to have those when you can also give them a compliment and maybe tell it’s going well, right? >> Yes. That’s part of my template too, right? Is you want to if you’re having

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that conversation, you want to say, “Hey, you know, just want to sort of touch base on performance. You know, here’s a few things that you’re doing well. We really appreciate that. You know, and here’s something that happened yesterday that um we just want to make sure you’re aware because it was pretty significant. You know, for example, in home care, um you know, a potential client called in requesting care and our policy is you got to get back to this person or escalate this within x amount

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of time and you didn’t do that. You know, now in this case, we did salvage it. So, it’s a near miss, but it’s still, you know, a violation. and it’s still something that shouldn’t have happened. Or in this instance, you know, we see that this person called looking for care and then, you know, uh because it didn’t get routed to the right party when the right party did find out about it and reach out, they had already secured care from another agency. So, it kind of you want it to be organic.

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You want it to you don’t want to just say, “Well, our policy’s x and you didn’t stick to it.” No, you want to always sort of show people that when you don’t follow our procedure, it hurts your co-workers, it hurts our clients, it hurts the business. So that you’re it just sort of explains itself. >> Yeah. Yeah, for sure. So, one of the things that comes up a lot when I demo for agencies and, you know, they’re talking about, oh, or management, how do

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I control an employee going and starting a new agency, taking all my clients? So I’m assuming that this comes up for you um non-compete NDAs and how you know how what your best practices are there um on that topic. >> Yeah. So you’ve hit on another topic that’s very state specific. So non-compete agreements, non-solicitation agreements, these are very state specific. So we would have to be talking about a particular jurisdiction to give the best advice. Um, and in home care,

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it’s interesting, some states have laws specifically targeting um, ensuring caregivers have mobility. So, New Jersey is an example. Connecticut is an example. You have certain limits on what you can and can’t uh, require a caregiver to agree to. Some states also restrict what you can um, what sort of prohibition you can put on a client, too. But um in general, speaking purely in general terms, >> um you know, NDAs, we’re talking about protecting confidential information like client lists, caregiver lists, uh

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protecting confidential information that’s pretty enforceable. So, you want to have an agreement as part of your onboarding package that you know uh people agree that these things are confidential and that they’re not going to disclose them or use them inappropriately. Um, in a lot of jurisdictions, you can also prohibit solicitation, meaning, you know, you can’t ask our clients to follow you to a different agency or you can’t solicit our um caregivers or office staff to jump ship to a different

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agency. Uh, a lot of jurisdictions that’s allowable. Again, it’s really state best state. And then when it comes to like a true non-compete, meaning you know if you work for me, uh you are not allowed to open an agency within you know 10 mile 25 mile radius of my agency. That is the uh the most difficult to enforce and as a practical um aspect. I mean, that’s the kind of thing that you would only really have with your executive leaders, you know, um, if you’re talking about actually

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like opening a competing business where you’re not going to solicit my clients, you’re not going to solicit my caregivers. I just don’t want another agency within my territory, so to speak. You know that it is potentially enforceable with executives. you know, if you have a COO or your business partner, these things, you know, these are the kinds of key people who just by virtue of them starting a competing business that will uh and because of what they know about you and your agency, that’s

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going to give them an unfair competitive advantage that you know that agreement is intended to address. So, yeah, it really is a talk to your lawyer situation because it is so different in um different states. But as far as a confidential information, pretty plain vanilla, that should be part of your onboarding package. And if your jurisdiction allows it, I would also suggest a non-solicitation as a part of part of your, you know, typical onboarding package because you’re not hurting a caregiver or um a

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member of your office team by prohibiting them from, you know, taking clients that your agency has developed. If they want to go work for another agency, that’s fine. You don’t have to take my clients to be successful. enough to take my caregivers to be successful. If you want to work at another agency, work at another agency. Just don’t hurt my agency in the process. >> Yeah, for sure. I really admire what you do just because there’s so much to it. Um and it’s so complicated with all

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the different states, but it sounds like you’ve built a real team there. Um I did want to go back to you mentioning that you’ve started a quarterly newsletter. Can you tell us about that? >> Yeah, sure. So funny that you asked because um it’s something I’ve wanted to do for a long time but didn’t have the bandwidth, you know, um didn’t know exactly what I was going to put in it. But um uh and my wife gave me a lot of grief for the name of this thing. I call it the silk halves

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and it’s bow tie themed because I’m, you know, known for my bow ties, you know, you’ll see in my profile picture and all that. >> Hey, so this is a signature look. >> Yeah. Yeah. This is this is my it’s my brand, you know. >> I love it. So, and just like a bow tie has two halves. Um, I call it the silk halves. There’s a professional half to my newsletter and a personal half. Um, the professional half has some sort of, you know, piece of value that I’m giving

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to my clients and my friends. Like in this instance, you know, a template that you can just take and adopt um so that you can give it to your management team and just to add value. Uh, and then on the personal side, I tell people, you know, what’s going on with my family? I’ve got five kids, so we’re always doing something. And uh >> you got five kids watching K-pop Demon Hunters. I pray for tonight. >> So yeah. No, I don’t think my kids are watching K-pop demon. I don’t even know

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what that is. Is that a >> Oh, you’re lucky. Consider yourself lucky. Yes. It’s taken over the world by storm. >> So yeah. No, they they’re probably watching other stuff. But yeah. No, we we’ve always got something fun going on or um I like to read, so I’m always sharing with my clients, you know, what books I’m reading. We’ll talk, you know, personal development, uh business growth, things along those lines. So, anyway, it’s just a fun way to stay in

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touch. >> That’s amazing. So, we know that you’re going to be writing a book. We’re going to hold you to that. And I suppose that you go to different states and often we there will be opportunities to see you speak on these topics. And um yeah, earlier you mentioned that you got a client from that very first the very first time you went out and spoke. Um and so it’s interesting how it all comes full circle. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I can I’d be happy to give that association a shout out.

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That was the um the um Homecare and Hospice Association of New Jersey. Um it’s a wonderful association for the state of New Jersey and um they have an annual conference in Atlantic City. actually spoke at it this past summer and yeah, so that that’s where it all began for me anyway for home care and now I’m you know enjoying traveling like you said to different um associations and speaking at the national conference for HCA >> and I guess that anyone interested in

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booking you to speak or interested in being a client can also look up your agency on LinkedIn as well as the firm as well as your own right Sami >> very easy to find Sami Asaad you know it’s pretty unique name You Google me, you’re going to find me. >> And if you’re not sure, just make sure it’s the guy with the bow tie. >> There you go. >> Thank you so much for your time and your insight, Sami. I really appreciate it. >> Thank you for having me again.